31 March 2008...8:45 pm
Write Idea, Wrong Century
As featured on Crooks and Liars
So, let me get this straight: I’m defending Abraham Lincoln from Northwest REPUBLICANS? Blog WAR (between the states)!

Infamous trampler of Southern Rights?
I took offense today. I took offense at a posting that I wouldn’t have even seen, had not the Mighty Washington Post named its blog one of the five best blogs in Oregon. Another of those five best blogs had a link to mine, and as I followed the trackback, I discovered the BlueOregon post on the Washington Post’s post.
And, in the Washington Post’s post, “Write Idea” was named, and I — foolishly, as it turns out — clicked on the link. And here was what I found:
American Civil War: The South Was Right
OK. My regular readers will remember that my post on the neo-Confederate movement and all of its implications, “Slavery — It’s Not Over” was featured on Crooks and Liars on January 1, 2008.
Eerily, it is a “prebuttal” to the pseudo-academic writings of someone calling himself oh-so-pretentiously “Publius.” As our local Howie Rich rep Kurt Weber calls himself “Silence Dogood” after Ben Franklin’s famous Boston newspaper pseudonym, so “Publius” was the Federalist Papers pseudonym of:
- Federalist Papers under the shared pseudonym “Publius” by Alexander Hamilton (c. 52 articles), James Madison (28 articles) and John Jay (five articles) (Wikipedia)
But I took offense in my comment on the Washington Post’s article site (and in a somewhat more detailed version at BlueOregon).
Why?
Because this American version of Holocaust Denial isn’t just academic. It’s the basis of a whole neo-Confederate movement, and some of the ugliest stuff in politics today, which I’ve been covering in webpages, blog entries and newspaper articles since the 1990s.
If it doesn’t bother you that one of the “best” Oregon political blogs — according to the Washington Post – is crankily out there claiming:
If the American colonies and the Southern states had a moral right to secede, than, obviously, it would be morally wrong to attempt to prevent their secession through invasion. This holds even truer in the Southern case, than in the colonial case. First, the Southern states presented a moral and legal right to secede. Second, unlike the British, the North violated the civilized rules of warfare. Third, the North had no legal, moral, or precedential argument favoring their cause.
“No subject [slavery] has been more generally misunderstood or more persistently misrepresented.” These words written by the President of the Confederate States of America ring ever so much truer today. Unbeknownst to many, Lincoln’s (so-called) Emancipation Proclamation freed only those slaves he had no control over. The proclamation stated that the slaves were freed, “within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States.” In other words, Lincoln freed those he had no control over and left those he had control over in bondage. Indeed, the proclamation specifically stipulated that those in slavery in the excepted areas (the areas that were not in rebellion) were to be, “left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.” This meant that slavery was still legal in the six parishes of Louisiana that were under Yankee control at the time and the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia. Moreover, ironic as it seems, the Northern General Ulysses S. Grant’s wife held personal slaves during the war. In fact, these slaves were not freed under Lincoln’s proclamation but rather under the Thirteenth Amendment passed after the end of the war.
This, after stating, a few paragraphs earlier:
Nevertheless, immoral actions by a certain entity do not make other actions by that entity intrinsically immoral. If this were not so, mankind would be in a sad state indeed.
And, following with the justifications that:
The majority of Northern states passed laws prohibiting or harshly restricting the entrance of “free blacks.” New Jersey shut out blacks; Massachusetts prescribed flogging for black nonresidents who stayed longer than two months. Ohio, at one time, passed a law expelling the entire black population. A number of states erected constitutional barriers to the immigration of free blacks. Oregon’s constitutional language was typical:
No free negro, or mulatto, not residing in this state at the time of the adoption of this constitution, shall ever come, reside, or be within this state, or hold any real estate, or make any contract, or maintain any suit therein; and the legislative assembly shall provide by penal laws for the removal by public officers of all such free negroes who shall bring them into the state, or employ or harbour them therein.
Northern hands were by no means clean when it came to the issue of slavery.
This, again, after stating, a few paragraphs earlier:
Nevertheless, immoral actions by a certain entity do not make other actions by that entity intrinsically immoral. If this were not so, mankind would be in a sad state indeed.
Which, aside from being self-contradictory, leaves aside the all important question, Exactly what “states rights” are you talking about, Sir?*
(* Answer: Slavery and the right to extend slavery to the new territories. If you doubt this, read Abraham Lincoln’s masterpiece, the “Cooper Union” speech, which, in pamphlet form, was distributed as Lincoln’s campaign pamphlet for the 1860 election. Lincoln, as was traditional, did NOT campaign, and surrogates like Senator Wm. Seward of New York campaigned in his stead. Lincoln scholar Harold Holzer properly calls it “the speech that made Abraham Lincoln president.”)
Just in case you were wondering. “Publius” isn’t much of a scholar, and even less of a thinker, with a profound LACK of grasp of history. But that wasn’t the point. Here is my comment from the Washington Post’s comments section:
Your featured Oregon blog “The Write Idea” is currently running THIS as its posting:=============Sunday, March 30, 2008American Civil War: The South Was Right… The myth of postbellum American government is simple and yet brilliantly effective: “In the American Civil War, the North fought to end slavery, and the South to preserve it.” This statement contains one of the greatest fallacies of American history.Unfortunately, the United States Government has applied its massive resources to propagate this myth. Schoolchildren study, some even memorize, Lincoln’s speeches–and yet–probably, they have never heard of a man by the name of Jefferson Davis….==========I don’t know what you were thinking, but this Southern Neo-Confederate propaganda is the American equivalent of Holocaust Denial.How this kind of horrific, toxic crap gets picked up by a purportedly legitimate newspaper is beyond me.Posted by: HartWms | March 31, 2008 12:26 PM
I made a slightly longer and less humble post on the BlueOregon site. (Note, I didn’t plug my blog in the WaPo, but sincerely wonder how this kind of toxic, crypto-racist garbage can be found on a “best of” anything, ESPECIALLY in Washington, D.C. — which was sorely tried by that Civil War– is beyond me. I am a member in good standing of the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War, Michigan Camp #20, and I do not consider the slander of my family’s sacrifices in that war to be a matter unworthy of comment.)
Here’s the extra portion added to my comment on the BlueOregon blog:
(Unless it was a Supreme Being’s synchronistic way of making the WaPo look like idiots).
Way to go, WaPo. Now everyone will be sure that Oregonians are bat-sh*t crazy.
(If you’re interested, my “pre-buttal” was featured on Crooks & Liars on January 1, and can be found here: “Slavery - It’s Not Over.”)
Congrats to Blue Oregon and Jack Bog for being on the list. And, if I might be so bold, leaving off the other best two Oregon blogs, Preemptive Karma and Loaded Orygun, was a gross oversight.
NW Republican? The bloggy equivalent of the late Weekly World News. Feh. Ptui. (Having been personally smeared by sleazy Coyote therein, I am NOT without prejudice in the matter.)
This had an astonishing triple effect. First, “Write Idea” pulled the pathetic “Republican Hatemeister as Victim” routine with this posting, today:
Washington Post: Best Oregon Blogs
… I am writing this post as a cordial reply to Blue Oregon’s post regarding the Washington Post’s political blog roll. This morning, Vorpal Sword (sic) had this to say about the Write Idea:
I don’t know what the Washington Post writer was thinking, but this Southern Neo-Confederate propaganda is the American equivalent of Holocaust Denial. How this kind of horrific, toxic crap gets picked up by a purportedly legitimate newspaper is beyond me. (Unless it was a Supreme Being’s synchronistic way of making the WaPo look like idiots).Way to go, WaPo. Now everyone will be sure that Oregonians are bat-sh*t crazy.
In my post regarding the Civil War entitled American Civil War: The South Was Right I present an admittedly biased, but I would like to say somewhat intellectual article on the American Civil War. Rather than engaging in a reasonable debate, the author of the above comments prefers to present an ad hominem argument that contains outright lies. I am willing to participate in an intellectual debate with anyone who reads my blog. Thus, I see no reason for the commenter to attack me personally, or for Blue Oregon to both tolerate and to host his comments.
Posted by Publius at 3:56 PM
Now, before I play you the BlueOregon blog owner’s response in Write Idea’s comments, let’s note the OTHER posting from NW Republican, who was ALSO included as a “best blog”:
3 comments:
- Anonymous said…
- This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
- I am Coyote said…
- LOL, yes the funny thing is that when we dissed him he did not call it a dis at the time in fact he bragged about it. I will say one thing for him. He is quite the conspiracy author. heh
- Anonymous said…
- OK I’ll try this another way. Coyote, congrats on the kudos. I checked the link to B.O. and guess what - remember that formerly underemployed pornographer who turned himself into a left-wing blogger? The one who was adopted as an anti-conservative MSM-source a couple of years ago? He’s still smarting from your dis.
Gee, you don’t suppose they would be talking about THIS posting, “Hart Williams Exposed“? THAT NW Republican posting contains such Olympian prose as this:
Wednesday, September 27, 2006
Hart Williams ExposedWell to most people the name would not ring any bell at all. He does however publish a blog called Boregasm. Yet to most newspaper reporters in Oregon, Steve Law in particular, Hart has become the driving force behind the entire conspiracy ridden “Howie Rich” stories.
Of course now that I am publishing this story it means that I have been in touch with the mother ship and probably plotting the removal of another planet in our solar system… I am a bad, BAD man.
You see all these newspaper stories regarding the folks at Americans for Limited Government are not the work of good reporters. Instead it seems that the reporters have simply been regurgitating the work of a fellow named Hart Williams. … I have read this guy’s work off and on for a few month’s now and found it so radically conspiratorial that it made my hair hurt. Almost to the point of not knowing where to start when trying to untangle the creative web (credit where credit is due, he is a “creative” person). Fortunately the Citizen Activist has done a pretty good job at uncovering just who this person is. Knowing the person behind the conspiracy theory is quite helpful, albeit, scary.
[...]
In case folks did not notice, I have delted (sic) the copied content in this post. The reason? It was just too tawdry for me. You can go visit Citizen Activist if you would like to discuss it over there. Or you can read it there and discuss it over here.
So, call me a prude.
Gee. Hope MY feelings weren’t hurt by this other “best” political blog. Weird that they’re still hung up on it (I noted being smeared by NW Republican by way of ethically suggesting that I clearly could not speak impartially. Capisce?)
So, guess what OTHER blog Publius (who is crying to BlueOregon that I’ve hurt his little neo-Confederate feelings) posts to?
Blogs
| Blog Name | Team Members | |
|---|---|---|
| NW Republican | Harry Meanwell Malaise Forever Silence Dogood I am Coyote CommonSense Zeo12 B.Slidel Dare!PDX DC Voyeur Hairy Reed 1001st Fiend | |
| Redirect sprenger | ||
| Write Idea |
Yeah. NW Republican. I guess he doesn’t mind when OTHER people get attacked in an ad hominem manner. It’s called “having your cake and eating it too.”
Not that my calling the “South is Right” pseudo-philosophy the “American equivalent of Holocaust Denial” is ad hominem. It’s NOT.
Ad hominem means “against the man” and I never accused Publius of being a yellow-bellied crypto-racist. I never called him a coward for hiding behind a pretentious pseudonym that dishonors the original intent of that pseudonym. I never called him an intellectual lightweight whose brain, if converted to an ocean, could be walked across without wetting one’s ankles.
THOSE would be ad hominems.
But Publius is cunning enough (or thin-skinned and fragile enough) to immediately play the “victim” card, by demanding that BlueOregon censor my hurtful comments, because, as we all know, the South was Right, after all, and had a perfect right to secede because they felt that their right to expand slavery was being threatened.
(Note: the Republicans and Lincoln NEVER said that they would abolish slavery in the slave states. Just that it would NOT be extended to the new territories. See Cooper Union. THIS was the source of the friction, and no amount of lying will alter those facts) .
And here is what Keri Chisholm of BlueOregon replied in the “Write Idea” comments:
Kari Chisholm said…
Hey, for the record, we “tolerate” all kinds of comments at BlueOregon. We leave it all up, unless it’s spam, violent, or vile (racist, homophobic, etc.)
Or, if it can be demonstrated to our satisfaction that it’s likely slanderous or libelous.
Beyond that: I recommend arguing whatever point is in question.
Which means, I guess, that I’ve been spared, although Chisholm suggests by negation that Publius WAS attacked ad hominem and that his “The South was RIGHT” idea is less than utterly crazy.
Gee. Who the heck am I that all of these “Best” political blogs are now in a tizzy?
I am sorry, but I have a moral OBLIGATION to challenge the revisionist Southern history movement. Sorry, folks. And, it’s eerie how Publius played the “Achilles heel” card and Chisholm FELL for it, exactly as outlined in this week’s posting “Liberal Achilles Heels - Number 17 in a Series” (March 26).
Weirder still, having predicted this whole phony rhetorical strategem and response last Wednesday, and having precognitively refuted Publius’ Southern Apologia on December 30th of LAST YEAR, I also find that his OTHER posting today, “Global Warming? B-r-r-r!” is not only a cluelessly unscientific “refutation” of Global Warming, AND an ad hominem smear of Al Gore:
On this last November 5th, in response to global warming skeptics Al Gore declared, “There are still people who believe that the Earth is flat.” Perhaps, Mr. Gore, you forgot to read this US Senate Report authored by 400 prominent scientists
[...]
So tell me, Mr. Gore, is the world flat or is it round?
BUT … I find that I had already refuted THAT post two weeks ago (without knowing that Publius even HAD a blog), in my 15 March 2008 posting, “Before Your Moron Friends Snort At Global Warming.” Worse, hasn’t he been following the collapse of yet another antarctic ice shelf the size of the Isle of Man? Bad bad timing for Publius.
So, points for precognitive ability accrue, at least. I have no idea what other future postings Publius has up his sleeve that I’ve already quashed.
But, in the midst of all this, my stance remains that this is CRAZY and TOXIC: this attempt to pretend that the Civil War was some form of monumental attack on states’ rights is an affront to decency , and the claim that the South was actually right, but whose “truth” has been suppressed by a monumental Northern brainwashing campaign to expunge the Noble Cause from the history books? THAT’s the crazy part? That I am against this crap?
That somehow, someone who writes this sort of political pornogrphy is, in fact, one of the top five blogs in Oregon?
Give me a break.
This is the sort of poisonous jabberwocky that his vorpal sword is wielded to slay. And I would be remiss in both my duty and my patriotism were I NOT to respond to this monstrous nonsense.
Chisholm might prissily inveigh that he’s open minded enough to have “controversial” commenters like myself, but what we OUGHT to be doing is going after these frauds, these historical charlatans, these political flim-flam artists, these phony scholars. And yet, once again, I stand alone, as Coyotes and Neo-Confederates take cudgels in hand to bully us out of confronting their toxic lies.
The entire “Northwest Republican” culture is a culture of sleazy innuendo, character assassination, sniggering and phony highfalutin’ “morality.” This whole sleazy, sanctimonius gang deserves outing, and yet, some poltroon locked inside the Beltway touts them as “great” political blogs as a way of filling space in HIS blog.
And, if ever we needed moral instruction on ethics, truthfulness and honest reporting, it’s from the ever-compliant catamite press corps of Washington, D.C. who have been so unremittingly honest and scrupulous in their examination of truth, lo, these past several war years. Yes, indeedy do.
I’ll leave Publius with the last word herein, which is more, I’ll wager, than he’d grant me:
… That is not to say the victorious North did not equate might with right. In the words of Supreme Court Justice Salmon P. Chase, “State Sovereignty died at Appomattox.”
Nearly all American historiography after 1865 is nationalist and based on the assumption that slavery was the root cause of the war between the states. This myth demands refutation. A new historical perspective holding that the prescription of secession in 1860 was morally and legally correct and that it was the only cogent and benevolent solution to all the troubles confronting the union at the time is imperative to the refutation of America’s “Battle Hymn of the Republic” myth:
When two men are about to come to blows, it is best to separate them. To write history from the assumption that the peaceful dissolution of the Union in 1860 was a good thing—nationalists, after all, assume that the dissolution of the Union under the Articles of Confederation was a good thing—would bring to light a vast array of facts, moral possibilities, and spectacular moral losses hitherto hidden from view. And it would open up political possibilities that are today closed off because the limits of politics are, in large part, the limits of historical self-understanding. [Note: Publius does not identify the quoted work. HW]
Bibliography …
Yee haw.
Courage.

















13 Comments
31 March 2008 at 11:23 pm
First, I must blush and offer thanks, for being included in your outrage over noninclusion in what is otherwise usually a decent column by Cillizza. Under the Woody Allen Principle of Showing Up, LoadedO’s now two-year daily history certainly qualifies us for certification of thick headed doggedness, if nothing else.
A few words on the other choices: despite my dismay at their profound current editorial crisis, BlueOregon remains the most trafficked, widest in scope, most diversely contributed and commented political blog in the state. They should be the first name that comes to mind for new political readers in Oregon, for good reason. And until 2007 the editors collectively had a stellar reputation for generally evenhanded presentation from the left, and never seemed to make an overt editorial choice for one Democrat over another in an electoral primary.
The collective participating may have created an aggregate of content that was biased for or against certain candidates (eg yay Erik Sten, boo Ginny Burdick), but you never got the sense that BlueOregon was making a concerted effort to distinguish between two Democrats running for the same office, by editorially elevating one and sharpening an eye against the other. I think that clearly has changed in the Senate race, and it has not been a positive change in my view.
I hasten to admit that my own site has taken a strong editorial position and advocates fiercely for one side vs the other. But that has been a purpose of LO from the beginning, without apology. BlueOregon serves a different, although overlapping function from LO. Its self-identity has long been Oregon’s progressive water cooler, except the management replaced it with Kool Aid and you only get to drink if you flash the right gang sign. They’ve put a wall up in their own forum, and it’s hurt them. Hopefully June will bring a return to relative normalcy for everyone.
Bogdanski has the most anti-intellectual group of cranks assembled on a blog since the Raiders got a web forum, and he’s beginning to reach Imus status as a cranky guy with highly repeatable patter on the same topics (rim shot). But a loyal following’s a loyal following, and he certainly has the Pamplin Group’s ear. Parochial in more ways than one, chief for this forum is his focus on all things (bad) about Portland–I guess “Oregon” isn’t synonymous with “statewide,” necessarily.
NWRepublican is standard witless right-blogging material. I got nothing against Ted Piccolo personally, we’ve talked cordially–but as Coyote, he’s all paws. Being a Republican in Oregon has to be pretty tough, because we’re not even Lieberman or Bill Nelson Democrats–we’re the granola-eatin’ kind. And really, NWR is probably the best choice from the right, such as it is.
I would definitely second Kari’s rec of Ali Edwards blog, which is only peripherally political but is worth so much more.
I think Mercury Blogtown PDX is a terrific blog, with a nice mix of news, editorial and event-based posts. I don’t give a crap about the fashion stuff and most of the art or kitsch, but their series on the Portland city Council candidates–pretty much all of them–deserves not only a web award but a mainstream journalism award. I’d be willing to bet that in many cases the Merc’s attention is the only attention they get from city media all campaign. That’s not a news service, that’s a mitzvah.
HinesSight is a marvelously personal view of politics. They were ground zero for a major Measure 37 fight, and they write politically through a very intimate lens that I appreciate.
RoguePundit is a reliable Southern Oregon blog that should be included on that basis alone, for balance–but it’s a worthy blog on merit.
You’re not so bad yourself, his.
TJ
1 April 2008 at 8:02 am
It seems to me that the problem here is that some have a very difficult time separating the question of the morality (or immorality) of slavery from the question as to whether the South had a legal right to secede from the Union. It seems to be assumed that those who believe the South did have a right to secede from the Union are automatically in favor of the continuation of slavery. I see no real discussion of the question of secession here, only a ridiculing of those who want to make the argument, but they seem to have no argument of their own but to simply label those who do have an argument as Holocaust Deniers. It’s kind of a reverse form of Godwin’s Law; Godwin’s Law states that the longer an argument goes on, the more likely it is that a comparison will be made to either Hitler or Nazis. In this reverse case, though, as soon as one can label the other side as Holocaust Deniers, one has seemingly won the argument instead of losing it by falling into the Godwin’s Law trap.
It’s always nice to have the luxury of declaring the argument of your opponent as being so ridiculous that it is unworthy of a counter-argument (”you Holocaust Denier, you!”), but in this case it seems to me that it’s a dead giveaway that somebody is afraid have a serious conversation on the topic at hand. I hope that you will rethink your position and attempt a better counter-argument that that of mere ridicule.
Mr. Williams replies: The intellectual argument is contained in “Slavery — It’s Not Over” which was clearly referenced in the article, had you the wit to actually READ before attacking cluelessly.
Secondly, I pointed you to Lincoln’s Cooper Union speech, which neatly refutes the argument, and which, again, you were too thick to read.
So, thanks for trolling. Stop by any time.
1 April 2008 at 8:18 am
Typical liberal media… When you feel threatened by conservative or independent competition, the first thing you do is to attack and distort.
Here is the quote when Publius was “crying to Blue Oregon”,
I wouldn’t exactly call that “crying”. I would love to see you and Publius have an honest debate like Pulius suggested. It is a measure of your intellect that all you can do is attack and distort.
Mr. Williams replies: Funny, when you think you can play the “victim” card, you pule and whine about “ad hominem” attacks. But now, in defense of “Publius” — without the sound of grinding gears — you go ALL ad hominem “typical liberal media” etc. WHILE quoting his “crying” (your term) about ad hominem attacks. Hmmm.
And yes, Virginia, “I see no reason for the commenter to attack me personally, or for Blue Oregon to both tolerate and to host his comments,” constitutes ‘crying.’ The clear implication is that Publius’ little feelings are hurt and my mean comments should be stricken from BlueOregon. Spin it however you like, the emotional appeal at its core is unmistakable.
(Although I DO like your “Pulius” — somehow it seems a more honest descriptive. The Latin root for “puling” one would think.)
Sorry. I’m one blogger. I’m no more “typical liberal media” than you’re “typical conservative media.” And, sadly, Publius’ “intellectual” credentials seem, upon close examination, to lie entirely with his repetition of the term.
Thanks for trolling. Stop by any time.
1 April 2008 at 9:25 am
Sadly, Blue Oregon is extremely tolerant of ad hominem garbage on an almost daily basis. Particularly so if you cross the paths of one of their official guardians of thought decency.
In just the past couple of days, I’ve been accused (by one of the site’s editors) of being a conspiracy theorist, compared to a creationist, and a monkey.
But Kari seems to like it that way, his newest addition — Preemptive Karma’s Kevin Kamberg — was one of the primary perpetrators of that kind of thing well before Kari picked him as an editor.
Mr. Williams replies: Excuse me, but what the hell are you talking about? I have pretty well shown authoritatively that I was NOT engaged in argumentum ad hominem in my BlueOregon comments, and, therefore, your discussion of BlueOregon’s comments style would a an argumentum non sequitur, although you veer dangerously towards my favorite fallacy: post hoc ergo propter hoc or, literally, “after this, therefore because of this.
As for the way that BlueOregon is run, well, that’s a conversation for another day and another forum. Really. (Note, this reply has been edited for good manners. HW)
1 April 2008 at 9:31 am
Mr. Williams, I did read your Crooks and Liars work (I came here today because of the link they have pointing to this thread), but my criticism stands: you refuse to address the topic of the legality of secession while remaining happily content to color all who believe that secession was legal as mere racists. Until you’re willing to argue the topic of the legality of secession without making slavery the focal point of your argument, then I don’t consider you to have argued against the legality of secession at all. Those who are arguing that the “South was right” aren’t saying they were right about slavery; they are saying that they had the legal right to secede over any matter that was deemed important enough to cause them to do so. The American revolution was essentially a secession over slavery: the colonists were determined not to become the slaves that taxation without representation was ostensibly turning them into. It’s just to bad that your revulsion to slavery (and good for you for it) won’t permit you to look dispassionately at the secession question.
Mr. Williams replies: I don’t debate “creationism” or “flat Earth” either.
Now you can beat the old saw that I’m “closed-minded” but, as you undoubtedly will maintain in a logical positivist tradition, there is “truth” and there is “falsity,” and to reopen this phony can of worms would be to dignify a poisonous falsity. I didn’t characterize this philosophy and its writings “political pornography” lightly, or without careful and deliberate research.
I have covered the neo-Confederate con and its resurgence for a decade and more in print, and you are welcome to look for my other writings. But as far as debating this nonsense, take it up with someone who can keep a straight face while listening to you. You can start with Wikipedia at “The Lost Cause.”
And, if you can provide a trenchant, elegant refutation to the deliberate and careful case that Abraham Lincoln makes in his Cooper Union speech, I would be convinced to listen to what you might have to say. Until then …
1 April 2008 at 9:57 am
BTW, there’s quite a good blogger going by Publius over at Obsidian Wings.
After reading both posts, I’m left with the impression you’ve conflated a few different issues. Slavery and the treatment of Native Americans remain the biggest stains on America’s history. Ending slavery, and later eliminating Jim Crow laws, were obviously great steps, long overdue. But slave states fought for the Union, and the Union certainly didn’t go to war with abolition its chief motive. That’s basically Publius’ thesis, and it’s accurate. I certainly wouldn’t present that point in his style, but after reading your post, I’m uncertain whether you acknowledge it, because as Mark N’s comment discusses, it seems you conflate two separate issues. Economic issues were key to the South’s secession, and slavery was key to their economic system, so it would be inaccurate to say that slavery wasn’t a key factor in the civil war. There were also abolitionists who fought for the Union with the hope of advancing their (just) cause. But the notion that the American Civil War was fought to end slavery is the overly-simplistic version taught to elementary school kids and at some high schools, where one side in a war is the “moral” one and their cause was wholly righteous. Reality is always more complex.
I take issue with “The South was Right” and any ennoblement of Jefferson Davis. I also have no sympathy with neo-Confederates, nor with neofascists, whose Northwest branches have been diligently chronicled by Dave Neiwert at Orcinus. Racism continues to be a major problem in America, and as Paul Krugman points out in The Conscience of a Liberal, the major political shift of the 20th Century was that Southern whites starting voting Republican. The Republicans’ “Southern Strategy” deliberately played on racism, and as Krugman also points out, Truman’s plans for universal health care were derailed in part by the fear of desegregated hospitals in the South. If you want to accuse Publius of being a neo-Confederate, fine, and I’d be interested in seeing other posts by him in that vein making your case. I’d say he’s being needlessly provocative, and I’m hardly going to make that site regular reading, especially given his denial of global warming. However, I also feel comfortable sifting the BS from the valid points in that specific post, and I haven’t seen you address those points, and that concerns me. Finally, your comparison of that specific post to Holocaust Denial is inaccurate and hyperbole, and having had to combat Holocaust deniers in my time, I really wish you wouldn’t throw that term around so freely.
Mr. Williams replies: My characterization of the “Lost Cause,” the “South was Right” et al, etc. as the American equivalent of Holocaust Denial is precise and demonstrably true.
The posting in question doesn’t need to exhibit all of the venomous bile of that subculture to partake of its fundamental indecency in all particulars. If you disagree, so be it, but your arguments are unconvincing. “Open mindedness” does not preclude considered judgment. And while this may seem a new argument to you, really it isn’t.
Certainly, one would hope that anyone with greater than a high school education would acknowledge that the Civil War was the culmination of a series of complex regional differences and disputes. But you attack a straw man: I never denied the Holocaust, nor that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War. You conflate me with the faceless Publius.
The wild resurgence of the neo-Confederate movement is a 1990s phenomenon, and does not particularly rely on much in the XXth century, Krugman notwithstanding. See: Myth of the Lost Cause and Civil War History, Alabama Review.
And yes, there are LEGIONS of “Publii” just as there are armies of “Silence Dogoods.” These folks generally believe themselves to be arch and clever and are genuinely surprised to discover that they aren’t the first sophomores to adopt the conceit of using a Founding Father’s pamphleteering pseudonym.
1 April 2008 at 10:21 am
A repetitively used tool by many revisionist historians on secession, is to say that discussing slavery in the context of secession is to miss the point of secession’s legality. Which is true as far as it goes–the mechanism of leaving the Union was certainly at issue–but neatly avoids why secession was being discussed: to preserve slavery. It’s like saying the Iraq War II was really about enforcing provisions set out in Iraq War The First–that may have been how it was justified and executed, but the goal was to change Iraqi government by force, deposing its leader, as an end in itself.
It is hard, after reading the secession declarations of states like SC and GA, to avoid concluding that the REASON for secession was slavery. It’s kind of, you know, directly stated. Of course it was grounded in the principle that those states could self-determine, but I think the spur is rightfully considered more important, historically, than the process.
Mr. Williams replies: Exactly, TJ. The majority of Southerners fighting didn’t have a slave in the fight, nor much hope of ever owning any. So they had to be convinced that they were fighting for “States Rights,” which was, as you say, a noble undertaking until some clever fellow asked … er, WHICH states’ rights are we talking about here?
Surely the idea that a vast mass of humanity can be conned into supporting a wealthy few shouldn’t surprise anyone after the “Death Tax” con and the “Tax Cuts for the Rich” debacle recently. So, too, the Sons of the South were conned with highfalutin’ language and Biblical pronouncements (read some of the sermons sometime).
And therein lies the rub that’s been at the center of the debate from before the Civil War, and continues to this very day. Nobody wants to think that their granddaddy died for a hideous cause. They believed in their cause. But they didn’t understand who was behind that cause, just as the “Reagan Democrats” don’t seem to “get” that they were voting against their own interests again and again and again. The slavery that the vast majority of “Johnnie Rebs” were unknowingly defending had been used to keep freemen’s wages artificially low for CENTURIES in the old South (suppressing the rise of a Middle Class). But they were convinced to fight for that “Southern Culture.” And they believed in the justice of their cause, as EVERYONE believes in the justice of their cause in any war you care to name.
1 April 2008 at 12:53 pm
Publius in his “intellectual” examination either overlooks or deliberately discards, a key piece of evidence from no less an expert on secession than Alexander Hamilton Stephens, the Vice-President of the Confederate States of America. Responding to Thomas Jefferson’s claim that “all men are created equal,” Stephens (in his “Cornerstone Speech”
had this to say:
If the Vice-President of the Confederacy openly claims slavery as the cornerstone of his nation, who is Publius to proclaim otherwise?
1 April 2008 at 8:02 pm
Mr. Williams, nice try, you changed your post! You did say “crying”.
If you are simple-minded enough to criticize peoples spelling in blog comments, I would suggest working on your own.
I am going to call your mother and tell her to kick you out of her basement.
Mr. Williams replies: If I misspoke, then I cheerfully admit my error, and admit to typing “crying.” (I’m not going to check. I’ll take your word for it.)
But, as to the paranoid accusation of “changing” my post: nope. Nice try. And the “neener neener poo pooh” mode of argumentation is noted. Therefore let me jump ahead to the logical conclusion of this interchange and characterize you as a “poopy head.”
PS: AJ, as a “the write idea” team member, you really ought to post the full URL when commenting, so that people can track back to your blog. You keep typing “http://TheWriteIdea” There’s a coding language called “html” and you might try learning it. (Hint, there’s a DOT suffix necessary to complete the link.)
You’re now officially 86′ed out of the bar. Can I call you a cab?
1 April 2008 at 9:05 pm
Mark N.
1 April 2008 at 9:31 am
Mr. Williams, I did read your Crooks and Liars work (I came here today because of the link they have pointing to this thread), but my criticism stands: you refuse to address the topic of the legality of secession while remaining happily content to color all who believe that secession was legal as mere racists. Until you’re willing to argue the topic of the legality of secession without making slavery the focal point of your argument, then I don’t consider you to have argued against the legality of secession at all.
***************
Mr. Williams replies: I don’t debate “creationism” or “flat Earth” either.”
Damn straight, these confederate revisionists still can’t accept one tiny, trifling fact, namely, the South lost, so cry me a friggin’ river.
Just like the Holocaust would not, and could not, have been validated if the Nazis had won WWII, neither could, or would, slavery have been validated even if the South had been successful during The War Between The States
People backing this easily-debunked confederate revisionism deserve no respect in obliterating their vile, pro-secession views, their reprehensible arguments.
It’s easy to speak in favor of the darker sides of our human nature when you’re not the one on the enslaved/tortured/wrongly imprisoned/wrongly executed end of the equation.
The South Lost.
Case closed, end of story.
2 April 2008 at 11:53 am
Okay, I’m not sure there’s much point in continuing this, but I’ll give it at least one more shot. I came here because of MBR at C&L, a feature I always try to check out at a site I frequent. You write:
Mr. Williams replies: My characterization of the “Lost Cause,” the “South was Right” et al, etc. as the American equivalent of Holocaust Denial is precise and demonstrably true.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but no, it’s not, as it relates to Publius’ post and otherwise, and I don’t know why you’re so insistent on pushing this. If you want to compare the neo-Confederates to neo-fascists and their mindsets, you’ve got a lot of mileage, and posting on both movements is certainly a worthy endeavor. But since I’ve had to take on some Holocaust deniers, speaking generally, Holocaust denial is about denying that an entire series of events occurred, or that the events themselves are radically misrepresented in terms of events, numbers, and so on. Arguing about the causes of the Civil War is qualitatively different. Arguing that the South was righteous is still another if related matter. Again, if you’re talking about similar mindsets, you’re on much firmer ground (and thanks for the link). Publius may be a neo-Confederate, and if so, have at him. But you never directly addressed the main point he presented in his post, however inartfully or provocatively. Slave states fought for the Union, and the Union did not go to war with abolition its chief motive. I never saw you address that in your post, and I’m still left wondering why, although in your response to me you acknowledge some complexity to causes. I don’t see why you couldn’t say something like, “While Publius is right on these points, he uses them to paint a deceptive picture…” or whatever. I’m frankly not as concerned about neo-Confederates as I am about inaccurate or overly-simplistic views of history, which is far more widespread. More to the point, I don’t see any reason why one can’t fight both simultaneously. It would only strengthen your case. Maybe Publius has done so elsewhere, but in that post, I didn’t see him come close to the genuine revisionism of Jonah Goldberg or Medved’s lunacy that slavery was really good for the slaves. I’ve seen many a bad history textbook in my time, and perhaps that will help you understand why I wrote my earlier comment in the first place.
You write: If you disagree, so be it, but your arguments are unconvincing. “Open mindedness” does not preclude considered judgment. And while this may seem a new argument to you, really it isn’t.
You seem to be under some misapprehension about what I wrote or why I wrote it, nor have you specified which of my “arguments” are unconvincing. I mainly pointed out facts and questioned your style and approach. And, as I hope would be clear to most readers, I agree with you on many points.
You write: Certainly, one would hope that anyone with greater than a high school education would acknowledge that the Civil War was the culmination of a series of complex regional differences and disputes. But you attack a straw man: I never denied the Holocaust, nor that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War. You conflate me with the faceless Publius.
Mr. Williams, at best you’ve really, really misread me or are being extremely unclear, but it’s really astounding that unintentionally or not, you’ve constructed a straw man representation of what I wrote while simultaneously accusing me of conducting a straw man attack on you! Wow. Where the hell did I say that you denied the Holocaust? Where did I say that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War, or accuse you of saying the same? Wasn’t the main point of your post how key slavery was, and wasn’t one of my points that it was a key factor, but not the only factor? Or are you trying to say that Publius denied slavery as a factor? Perhaps you can clarify. Acknowledging you’ve either misread or misrepresented me might also be nice. I’m wondering, do you realize that I and other people critiquing your post can largely agree with you, but still want greater clarity or accuracy on specific points or disagree with aspects of your approach or argument? I don’t think you’ve really addressed the substance of my comment, you’ve strikingly misrepresented parts of it, and while it’s your blog, of course, you certainly have not responded to it in the spirit or tone it was offered. Not very frabjous.
Mr. Williams replies: I will concede that I’ve misinterpreted your post. We are stuck with arguing about a metaphor, and, to the extent that you want to parse your penultimate sentence, I will concede the point.
Holocaust denial is about denying that an entire series of events occurred, or that the events themselves are radically misrepresented in terms of events, numbers, and so on. Arguing about the causes of the Civil War is qualitatively different. Arguing that the South was righteous is still another if related matter.
Here, I have to disagree: my analogy was based on teleology. Both arguments — holocaust denial and Southern “rightness” — are intended to create an entire series of (odious) policy effects in the here and now, and not the there and then. In many ways, the intended consequences are the same. I am not running for professor so I really don’t need to carry the metaphor further.
By saying that “Lost Cause” arguments are the American equivalent of “Holocaust denial,” I mean that the selective re-creation of history is intended to alter specific policy debates in (generally) an horrific manner. There is no requirement in the blogosphere that I be as precise in my analogies as if I were arguing a monograph before a University committee. The metaphor succeeds or fails on its own merits, but you have no intrinsic right to take offense at my comparison of two odious philosophies. They may be apples and oranges to you, but they are crabapples to crabapples as far as I’m concerned. What remains then, as Twain noted, is art.
In the midst of all these trees, the forest has been lost: The Washington Post has decided (for odd reasons, since we’re talking about a blog with 72 posts in 2007, its inaugural year, and 30+ this year) that “The Write Idea” is one of the top five Oregon political blogs. Having clicked over to it, I find, instead of Oregon politics, this bizarre screed about how the “Lost Cause” continues to be right, the Union was wrong, and somehow Abraham Lincoln is now the devil who oppressed the “states rights” of the slave states to secede — an astonishingly bizarre claim from a Republican, and a member of the NWRepublican blog “team.”
I have attempted to keep this from devolving into a debate on the merits of a question long since buried and dead, and now we argue the aptness of my metaphors and other writers’ group trivialities. This is a far country from what I attempted to communicate, but, as I am NOT engaged in writing a Master’s Thesis or a Doctoral Dissertation, I have not the time to engage in long broadsides. If you had agreed with me, you would wonder at the sheer gall of our Oregon “best” blog. If you had disagreed, you should have accused me of gross hyperbole, which you did.
Now, I hope that your feelings aren’t hurt, but I am not subtle enough, nor committed enough to engage in long-winded parsings of everything I had to say, most especially since the specific arguments of “Writie Stuffins” were never at issue. If this is acceptable to you, sir, I presume you will let me know. If not, then I plead that I am not nearly intelligent or nuanced enough to respond to your brilliant critiques.
2 April 2008 at 2:42 pm
Thanks for the concession and explanation. Drop the sarcasm aimed my way (unless I’m misreading that) and you’re on. Look, here’s the key. I don’t see the point of antagonizing fellow liberal bloggers or commenters where there’s basic agreement. And personally, since I’ve seen so many bad American History textbooks - and some ugly threads bringing up the Civil War, which generally start when somebody says “All Southerners are racists!” - it’s a subject I feel demands some precision. And it certainly seemed like the main point of your post. That’s all. Sorry if my comments seemed tangential.
So back to the best Oregon blogs - I defer to your greater familiarity with them. I read the WaPo all the time, and while they have some excellent writers and bloggers (Dana Priest, Dan Froomkin), their editorial board is pretty damn conservative, their Outlook editor is a twit, Howard Kurtz’ blog is often the conservative blog roundup, and Cillizza can be hit or miss. The idea of linking the best state blogs is a great one, he links some good blogs I know, but I agree completely that the blogs highlighted should cover politics in their states and have some, um, merit. So, peace, and happy slaying of future jabberwocks.
Mr. Williams replies: Thanks, and ten-four. Because it seems important here, let me quote my reply to a comment in “Slavery — It’s Not Over” (30 December 2007):
28 April 2008 at 11:40 am
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